Securing Urho3D's future


#1

I was wondering if there has been any thought on securing Urho3D’s future by setting up a Patreon or something? Maybe cadaver could setup an Urho Foundation (similar to Blender) that can take donations to fund development and maybe even bug bounties the core team deem critical enough.

I just really like Urho and I’ve done some pretty cool stuff with it but I’m concerned it might remain a toy and fizzle out someday and practically disappear kind of like, for example; the PixelLight and CrystalSpace engines. There are also a lot of other open source and commercial frameworks that Urho3D has to compete with in terms of interest such as; Ogre, Unity, Torque3D, Unreal, Crytek, Godot (recently setup a Patreon awhile ago to fund 3.0), Blender Game Engine and so forth.

Just throwing some thoughts out there. What are your thoughts?


#2

I’m sorta worried about the same thing, especially after seeing the doldrums that settled in after cadaver stepped down from lead role. I’d be willing to swing some money toward keeping this going, if there were a foundation in place and some committed leadership. I like Urho3D and I want it to keep going.


#3

A Patreon would be cool or something similiar Foundation like. I’ll be willing to help it.


#4

I am ready to donate a small amount of 500$ if Cadaver will take back the lead role .
In addition based on the progress I will donate some money also in the future.
In my opinion the Godot way is the right way to go .
See reference : https://godotengine.org/article/shedding-light-on-godot-development-process

Others did made great contributions but I think Cadaver’s involvement is a must.


#5

Cadaver had said that his staff do not use Urho3d engine now, if so, the project is going to death.


#6

Yeah. We have kept that role open in the hope Lasse will take it back again.


#7

I feel the same way, I really like Urho3D and hope to see it keep going. I’m willing to donate if cadaver or someone takes the lead to setup a foundation.


#8

I also really like Urho3D and I’m willing to donate to keep it going.
But it will need strong, dedicated leadership.
I hope Lasse will reconsider.


#9

I can very safely say I’m not coming back to the lead position. And I especially would not want to be obligated by any monetary contributions.

You certainly have my blessing to organize funding for the project as you desire; you don’t need me for that.

Though, I don’t think an open source project’s future can be forced into the better, if it doesn’t come naturally from the sheer joy of working on it, and from having contributors that have enough motivation and time.

Urho (the fish) was killed with a kitchen knife on the draining board when it was found too sick to thrive & fight in the fish tank any more. Then the halves were flushed down the toilet. If you someday decide to do the same for the project, you also have my blessing.

(edited for factual accuracy; misremembered & combined two separate fish executions at first)


Community components and subsystems?
#10

Spoken like a true leader. :wink:

Let’s just try to keep the vultures at bay while we build a temple worthy of its spirit. Urho’s no ordinary fish.


#11

Well, it’s my turn to say something…

I think Urho won’t benefit from donations now.
Since Urho is much less popular than e.g. Godot, I doubt that there would be enough donations to hire anybody on full or even half time, at least in the nearest future.

In my opinion, contribution is always the best donation. Best thing that one could do for the Urho’s future is to start using it in projects and be ready to implement and contribute missing features.


#12

Why not take a Star Citizen approach then? Set goals then depending on stretch goal reached a dedicate person can be gotten to develop a feature. While this allows contributors to contribute coding on other aspects. The key part is using and showcasing on any available media.


#13

Id like yo jump in on this and say @rku has been running his own Urho3d branch and small team keeping at least some form of progress and security alive. He is taking a slightly different approach to development but i feel it would work well for the future of Urho3D.

On the topic of the donations stuff it may be a good idea even if we dont have the popularity of Godot doesnt mean we dont have enough for a part time leader. and all donations are entirly optional, the leader should be willing to work unpaid just out of love for the engine.

Ideally we should also do a public voted roadmap where they can choose what they want to see in the engine and it also means people who want to help can see what features should be worked on.


#14

I kinda think it’s a good idea. If there is a enougth donation / contributions it can go to the part time leader and/or developer. A roadmap would be nice 6 months. I don’t know a list of small goals then it’s voted on then made into a stretch goal like Star Citizen does.

It’s just a example.


#15

Here are my two cents :

IMHO what Urho3d needs right now is popularity,And gaining in popularity doesn’t necessarily require money but lot of work and enthusiasm.The following changes could skyrocket Urho3d’d popularity :

  1. Independent website. Right now everything is all over the place.There are some official and unofficial wiki pages , there’s the Github main page , and the discourse forum… (Which is in my opinion absolutely bad for a technical forum).No matter how great fast and easy to learn Urho3d is comparing to the other engines , nothing will turn down peple faster than a overcomplicated and badly designed website.Everything should be in one place.Garage projects , Tutorials , forum and a blog.
    2.Editor. We can keep everything but the current editor must go. It’s great it’s functional it’s cross platform but to be honest it won’t evolve because no one will fiddle with angelscript sources and scrolling through hundreds of lines of codes without an angelscript editor. It must be re-implemented in c++ and must be expandable with scripted plugins. The UI design must be replaced too either with a new skin or TurboBadger.

#16

99% of forum is suggestions do this or that. But everyone hopes that someone else will do it. That’s the problem, but not something else.


#17

I would love to hear what @rku is doing in his branch of Urho3D, and what goals he has with it.


#18

Not much, just things i personally find useful. They do not align with goals of upstream and have little chance being accepted into main Urho3D project.

Some things i did there:

Completely rewrote build system. It is not as feature-full as current Urho3D build system, but is much more lightweight and easier to modify. Also added gradle build script for android so that new SDK/NDK can be used. Thanks to @Pencheff and others for doing research!

Removed AngelScript and Lua bindings because IMHO they are toys that require way too much maintenance. Scripting languages have their place in scripting scene logic, but wrapping entire engine only to allow use it for someone who does not know how to compile c++ code… I am not interested in that.

Added imgui subsystem and integrated it with Urho3D UI so they do not fight when both are available on screen.

Started writing imgui editor in that fork. Future of editor is not clear to me at the moment. @Eugene wants to see it upstream but at the pace Urho3D is moving i find it very demotivating to contribute to upstream.

Added easy_profiler integration which was originally written for Atomic. Actually useful profiler is very important.

Convinced @boberfly to add bgfx backend. He is working on the code, i make build system happy. Porting happens on a fork of my fork. bgfx will land in my fork way before PR gets accepted by Urho3D.

Added my tasks (stackful coroutines) subsystem. Yes, it may not work on all platforms. They are still awesome.

Added convenience subsystem getters with pointer caching because writing GetCache() is definitely better than writing GerSubsystem<ResourceCache>() and hashmap lookups for getting subsystems is wasted work. I know hashmap lookups are fast. It is still wasted work. Practicality beats purity. This by the way was suggested to Urho3D in a PR and was declined.

I am working on c# wrapper generator using CppSharp. We will see what comes out of it. No promises :wink:

This fork does not offer hard backwards compatibility guarantees. This is a moving target and you will need to update your code after engine update. To be honest i did not really intend others to use this fork so i suggest to not grow dependant on it. I view it more like incubator of nice-to-haves. @dragonCASTjosh wants to contribute some cool shader work which may or may not be accepted by upstream. My fork is more accepting of all kind of code. This ultimately means that code will not be as stable as vanilla Urho3D. My work is oriented towards a powerusers who know what they are doing. Newbie users should not use this fork because they will definitely have a very bad time with it.


#19

I’m going think on some ideas to help on that point.


#20

I think Urho3D can be a game changer if we seriously regard the developement as a game engine, not a hobby project or test field, as a real game engine. It could be a real competitor of the commercial game engines out there.

I don’t know why Cadaver abandon this cool, elegant project in which he put his energy and showed everyone his extraordinary talent. I really love the code of Urho.

I truely believe that many commercial studio can take Urho and make some aggressive improvements and make really professional games. Maybe that’s the only way to show the true value and potential of this project (if they let ppl known).

It could be, it could be… like most of the open souce software.